A Multicultural Landscape: National Parks and the Macedonian Experience

7. Focus Group 2: Young Macedonian adults

The group The convening of a second Macedonian focus group was a direct outcome of the earlier session. Tony Najdov, who translated for the Macedonian pensioners, expressed his support and enthusiasm for the project. Toni organised for me to meet with him and a group of his friends at a restaurant in the Fox Studios, Sydney. The work commitments of the discussants prevented a day-long workshop. On the other hand, the discussion could proceed more rapidly because everyone was conversant in English.

The group consisted of the following six people, all connected with the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia:

Toni Najdov

29 years old

Born in Macedonia; arrived in Australia in 1992

Violeta Brdaroska

27 years old

Born in Macedonia; arrived in Australia in 1989

Elvis Joncevski

26 years old

Born in Melbourne

Bilyana Brdaroska

25 years old

Born in Macedonia; arrived in Australia in 1989

Suzi Bodganovski

26 years old

Born in Sydney

Novica Angelovski

27 years old

Born in Australia

The group consisted of three couples: Toni and Violeta; Elvis and Bilyana; Novica and Suzi. It should also be noted that Violeta and Bilyana are sisters. As can be seen from the places of birth and arrival, members of the 1990s wave of migration and children of the 1960s phase of migration were represented. Elvis’s experience is slightly different. Born in Australia, he returned to Macedonia with his family when he was just two years old. He returned to Australia independently when he was 18 and now works as a night manager in a hotel. Everyone except for Elvis is university educated. Toni studied history and is now employed as a Macedonian community worker; Violeta studied arts/law and works as a political adviser; Bilyana is a psychology graduate; Novica is a lawyer; and Suzi is a teacher. The experience of this group, like that of the pensioners, indicated that there is considerable traffic between Australia and Macedonia. Consequently, Suzi and Novica, who were born in Australia, have concrete experience of the Macedonian countryside.

The session was opened in a similar way to Focus Group 1. I introduced myself (Sharon Veale was not in attendance) and stated the reasons for the NPWS being interested in the issue of ethnicity and national parks.^[71]

What does ‘the environment’ mean in Macedonia? The discussion opened with this question and we returned to it several times during the evening. The responses were extremely illuminating. Toni pointed out that ‘There’s no specific word for environment in Macedonian.’ Prior to the discussion he had tried finding the equivalent word in the dictionary. There was priroda which means nature and okolina, meaning surroundings. But neither captured the complex set of meanings that cluster around the English term environment. It seemed an important insight to the cultural specificity of what in English is such a heavily laden term.

Novica also responded, suggesting that the significance we attach to ‘the environment’ probably reflects our alienation from it. He described most Macedonians, including his parents, as coming from a village background. That determines their mentality, he explained. Environment there involves everything they do. Their work is controlled by the seasons. The environment is in no way separate from oneself; it governs every aspect of life, whether it be planting crops or tending animals.

Suzi and Novica explained that when they went to Macedonia together in 1998, the villagers they visited found the concept of tourism difficult to grasp. They could not understand the reason for leaving one’s home and sightseeing around Europe. ‘Why do you want to see things?’ they would say. To them this seemed to reflect the fullness with which the villagers were adapted to the rhythms and cycles of the natural world. Novica also pointed out that mountains represent hard work – following sheep up to the pastures, for example. To be able to stop and look at the view as an object of pleasure requires distance from the rigour of labour.

A national parks culture in Macedonia The group acknowledged that co-existing with this village mentality is a culture of national parks in Macedonia. But this is more the preserve of urban people who enjoy outdoor recreation in ways similar to those popular in Australia. Violeta and Bilyana were brought up in a village that was close to the city. Their mother worked in the hospitality industry. Tourists came from all over Europe wanting to go to the mountains, ride donkeys, and enjoy the scenery. The concept of tourism was thus very familiar. They suspected, however, that this familiarity was not common across the country. Toni cited examples of national parks with villages within them. He felt that for these people, still working the tough life on the land, the idea of tourism would be ‘a bit weird’.

An imagined landscape I suggested to the group that there is often a landscape, most likely an imagined landscape, that underlies national cultures. In Australia it might be the beach or the bush even though most people live in the cities. I asked if there’s a rural landscape or ideal that underlies Macedonian culture?

Novica responded with an observation that would be repeated emphatically throughout the session:

I think so. You rarely hear people talk about the beauty of a physical place, at least in the sense whenever our parents talk about it. It’s not just a beautiful river but it was the beautiful river where we did this and this. Where we might have collected this or where we might have walked –

Suzi: Or where I bathed or where I washed –

Toni: Or the monasteries we visited, the churches we visited...

Like the photographs shared by the pensioners group, there was no sense of a landscape without some human or social activity occurring within it. Toni confirmed the previously stated impression that the village appears as an idyllic model, even for people who live industrialised lifestyles. Some will commute to factories from villages; for those who live in town the village is a weekend refuge. This is where one eats the healthy food, relishes the clean air, and has convivial times with friends and family.

Returning to the village For Suzi, growing up in Australia, impressions of her family’s village were central to her understanding of Macedonia. She went there for the first time in 1998. ‘I was blown away by my parents’ village,’ she recalled. ‘Just the location. Time has stood still there.’

Yet in certain ways time has not stood still. Emigration (overseas and to the cities) has had a profound effect on the villages. They are remembered with great nostalgia by the emigrants, but these days they are almost empty. The population of Suzi’s village has dropped from 500 in its heyday to 30 now. Most of the population is over 60 and the old traditions still prevail. Most work on the farm is done by hand. There is no shop in the village. They still grow their own vegetables and make their own bread and cheese. In financial terms they are poor, but to Suzi and Novica they have all the good things in life.

Suzi described her initial surprise at what seemed a lack of ‘environmental responsibility’ within the villages. She was initially shocked when she saw people throwing rubbish into open spaces, responding to her objection by saying: ‘No, the wind will blow it away.’ Later, she reflected on her response and realised the hypocrisy of making judgements about this. ‘How dare we be mortified and judge them when we destroy the planet ten times more than they do.’

Emigrating to Australia Why did their families leave those villages which now, viewed from an urban context, seem to embody the good life? Suzi was the only member of the group whose residence in Australia is associated with political persecution. She described the situation as ‘dire’ for her family. Her uncle had escaped and her father followed, arriving in 1966.

All the group agreed that familiarity with the Macedonian community in Australia contributed to the migration. It was inconceivable one would arrive without knowing other Macedonians. They describe economic betterment as the primary motivation for coming to Australia.

Village to factory While the material benefits were considerable, the group confirmed Paul Stephen’s claim that the transfer from Macedonia to Australian factories was traumatic. The strict division between working life and leisure time was foreign to them. So was the social environment of the nuclear family. To some extent they tried to replicate the extended family or even the village structure. Sometimes several families shared houses, and parents placed enormous pressure on children not to move out of home. As Novica explained,

That’s why they build large houses, what are derogatorily called the ‘wog boxes’. Not to show off wealth or anything but to build enough rooms so that when the children marry they stay and the grandchildren stay.

I pointed out that Novica had said ‘wog boxes’ with a bit of a smile. It seemed evident that the discussants sometimes found a humour in the ways of their parents. Tony said: ‘We’re still in a rebellious stage.’

The pressure on children not to leave home was something all the discussants had had to contend with. Violeta said that in some ways it was actually easier for the girls. They were expected to leave home – traditionally to marry. This was still expected, though the expectation is perhaps less severe. It is certainly deemed preferable that they marry a Macedonian. Suzi believes this has become more flexible, however. The mores have been loosened in response to the large number of failed marriages.

Macedonian gardens In discussing how Macedonians developed their own aesthetic in modifying their outdoor spaces, Suzi spoke with amusement about her Macedonian neighbour who tried to burn down the eucalyptus tree outside her house because it was dropping leaves.

Suzi: You should see his garden. It’s concreted. He’ll plant a tree and concrete around the tree. Very much controlled.

Toni: The emphasis is on functionality.

Novica spoke far more affectionately about his parents’ garden. They planted fruit trees and a vegetable patch that colonised the whole front yard. This used to embarrass him but he’s proud of it now. It was their way of making themselves at home.

Aroma Novica related how many Macedonians grow a plant called stravec. If you rub the leaves it smells beautiful. Another plant, something like basil but known as bosilok, is also grown for its aroma and is often taken to the church. Suzi described the comic scene of her parents walking round with bosilok up their noses. The group agreed that the fondness for these aromas is part of their nostalgia for home.

I asked them about smells associated with Macedonia.

Violeta: A smell of late autumn getting into winter and smoke from the chimneys.

She smelt it again during a recent visit to the Blue Mountains. They also spoke of cooking smells, manure in the villages – sensations triggered by a visit to the Royal Easter Show. There were memories of the specific type of incense used in the churches, the fragrant lipa tree which is used for tea, and of course the pine forests.

In contrast, no one could identify aromas typical of the Australian bush. As Toni put it,

I think it is different. I don’t know if you can attach a specific smell to it. Eucalyptus – does it smell? [laughs] Once you cross the equator there’s a completely different smell isn’t there.

Like the pensioners group, the younger Macedonians had little concept of the Australian bush having its own aroma.

Ideas of wilderness Opinions differed about whether there is such a thing as wilderness in Macedonia. Novica thought there probably are large, unoccupied tracts of land, but they are not regarded as beautiful or precious because they are unpopulated. Suzi said she definitely had ideas of wilderness when she went to Macedonia.

We had thick mountainous country and hunters. They actually have hunting shacks...There are no defined trails. Definitely wild.

But there seemed consensus that the high value placed on wilderness as an uninhabited environment is not replicated in Macedonia. As Violeta put it, ‘wilderness is used for interaction rather than leaving it on its own.’ Human influence on ‘wilderness’ spaces was acceptable, indeed to be expected. The killing of animals, for instance, could definitely occur within rugged areas. Both wolves and bears are found in Macedonia and hunting is reasonably common. The group pointed out that this happens in a way that is well informed about the life and habits of the fauna. Elvis had had extensive experience of this since his family are all hunters. They know which animal they will be stalking and not to kill during mating. In summer their guns are all locked up because it’s out of season.

Novica offered the following insight on the wilderness theme, reinforcing the connection between people and environment in Macedonian culture:

I think I’d go back to what I said earlier about people being important, people being central. I think for Macedonians of my parents’ generation, people have to be in the picture somewhere. If you look at the ways people use National Parks here, one of the biggest days on the calendar is going to the Royal National Park. It’s a big community event. That’s the highlight. The highlight is on the inward focus, the focus within the community, rather than going to observe nature and that’s part of the beauty of it – a large group of people getting together in nice surroundings. In my own growing-up very rarely have we gone out as a family unit somewhere – whether it’s a park, a national park, it’s always a grouping of family, family and friends, so that you can not only enjoy good food and nice surroundings but the company of people. I don’t think there’s that priority of going somewhere to observe the physical environment. That’s more foreign.

All the group agreed that the size of cities plays an important role in defining attitudes to wilderness in nature. They pointed out that even in the larger Macedonian cities, the mountains are visible. They seem part of life. There isn’t the need to escape the urban environment that they feel here. Consequently the demarcation between civilisation and nature seems less rigid.

National parks in Australia We spoke about the sorts of outdoor recreation popular within the group. With the exception of Elvis, who has no taste for it whatsoever, bushwalking was cited as a popular activity. It seems that the desire for community solidarity in outdoor spaces is far less important to the younger generation. Their national park recreation is more private, involving just their partner or a small group of friends. Toni related how nature was always part of his life in Macedonia. He continues to feel that here, describing his experience of visiting a Queensland rainforest in the following terms:

I felt a sense of cleanness. My whole body felt clean. I don’t know how to explain it. It’s probably a spiritual thing or something. I did experience it.

I was interested to find out whether the fear of the bush described by the pensioners group was manifest in the younger generation. Novica thinks it is far less pronounced.

You’ve got to understand culturally why they are afraid. They come from a society where crime is very low and where everyone knew everyone in the village. In an industrialised society like this they do get scared and think there’s a lot of crime out there. They are more fearful.

While Toni considered himself more concerned for his personal safety in the urban environment, Suzi does find the bush a menacing place:

I go to a rainforest and we’re the only ones there and I start to get freaked out. We’d walk and walk and get further away from people and then I’d realise we’re on our own! There could be someone behind us.

In contrast, Violeta described experiences in the bush, such as swimming in waterfalls, and marvelling at her preparedness to do this despite not being able to see the bottom of the pool. It seemed on such occasions that latent fears could be overcome.

Christmas celebrations What is the attitude of this generation to the Christmas ritual at Royal National Park? The group had mixed feelings about these annual festivities. Novica and Suzi went there as children but would be reluctant to attend now. Their basic complaint is ‘too many people’.

For Violeta, who arrived in 1998, ‘Going on Christmas Day was part of my initiation into Macedonian Australian society.’ She laughed as she said this and I asked if it was a somewhat tongue-in-cheek introduction.

Violeta: Kind of, yeah. It wasn’t a very good experience for me because there were too many people. It’s a very different culture from what I know.

Me: So you felt a bit out of touch with Australian-Macedonian culture. How did that seem to you?

Violeta: Very different. I felt completely out of touch. It just felt the way they spoke and the way they behaved, the customs and the family relationships, were what I would have read of in descriptions of post-War Macedonia, or even in the Ottoman Empire. It was interesting that they spoke English but they behaved like Macedonians. To me that was a striking difference.

Bilyana, like her sister, found it strange to be in Australia while totally surrounded by Macedonians. The others, also, described feelings of discomfort or alienation at the Christmas picnic.

Elvis: There were too many people, too many Macedonians around, I guess. I never went back again.

Novica: As you get older the daggier it seems because you associate it with your childhood, going with your parents.

Toni: Also, for us that have come recently, for new arrivals, they don’t have that sort of thing in Macedonia. Also it’s Catholic Christmas so they’re not paying their normal respects.

Suzi: Toni if you were to marry and have children would you go to the National Park?

Toni: No, not because of the Macedonians or anything like that. I just don’t like what they do.

Suzi: What don’t you like. Is it the fact there’s too many people?

Toni: I don’t like the car thing, showing off the cars. We’ve been to National Park on Christmas Day but what did we do? We went on the side where there was no one there, it was just our group. Instead of relaxing and having a nice quiet day it becomes a circus.

Novica: We’ve grown and want to do something separate that’s more to our own taste.

Aboriginal issues The discussants gave a range of responses when asked if they had much knowledge of Aboriginal culture. Suzi had taught at an Aboriginal School in the Sydney suburb of Darlington. This gave her many insights. Violeta had learnt about Aboriginal issues through contact with lobby groups she encountered in her work as a political adviser.

Toni had studied Australian history at the University of Western Sydney, but was disappointed at the lack of Aboriginal history on the curriculum. He felt he had learnt a lot about convicts and very little about indigenous Australians. Novica suggested that there was a big difference between Aboriginal issues, which are reported in the media, and not a lot about the culture. When I asked him if he felt he would understand the issues better if he understood the culture, he gave the following example.

After uni I worked for a brief period with ATSIC (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission) and I worked in the law and justice section and the controversial minister, Herron, wanted to introduce means-testing for legal services. On the face of it it seems if someone can afford to pay why shouldn’t they pay? I did a bit of research into the issue. I found out that Aboriginals often, if there’s a wage earner – unlike in the white society where you support only your nuclear family – often there might be only one wage earner for a very large extended family and community. So it becomes a lot harder when you have an understanding of that to say: ‘You’re earning $500 a week, so therefore you can afford to pay for your legal costs.

Suzi also believes that an appreciation of Aboriginal culture is the foundation for an understanding of political issues.

When I worked in that Aboriginal school there was definitely an emphasis on culture and culture taught you how to deal with the children so there were always books about Aboriginal songs, Aboriginal music. It was a big eye opener.

Reconciliation The discussion revealed a great deal of passion within the group about issues to do with justice and reconciliation – not only on the Aboriginal front but also in wider society. The failure of the Commonwealth to apologise for the Stolen Generation of Aboriginal children was cited as a matter of great moral weakness.

Violeta: If a government does not want to lead to that extent, or doesn’t want to devise proper strategies to enable reconciliation, then it’s a very selfish way of approaching other things as well. It will follow into other relations – into how we bring up our children tomorrow.

I asked Violeta if she saw a necessity for reconciliation across the social spectrum. She replied strongly in the affirmative.

You can’t have double standards on reconciliation. I saw in the paper today John Howard saying sorry for the Holocaust but why is that not being extended to Aboriginal people, why is it so difficult to say that? Obviously black-white relations are not present in the history so that we new migrants could not learn to the proper extent what took place. There’s obviously some covering of history. That in itself is a big problem that needs to be reconciled.

Novica added:

You can just tell that something’s gnawing away. Even with the people who are loudly and emphatically trying to say that there isn’t a problem, there’s nothing to say sorry about, there’s no stolen generation, even those declaratory statements show how much there actually is something gnawing away. It has to be faced, it has to be addressed. It needs a big heart.

The Balkan Experience I remarked on the urgency of their tone. For both Novica who was born here and Violeta who has been here just two years, the reconciliation issue clearly embroiled them both. Violeta described how the long history of conflict in the Balkans had heightened her sensitivity to this issue.

I wanted to add another thing about reconciliation as migrants, especially coming from the Balkans. We have very extensive history of wars and a lot of things to be sorry about and to say sorry about or to feel victimised and the whole thing. And I think we have been taught in certain ways whether through history or through tradition that you move on and that you perhaps know who the enemy is or was but you still move on. I think it’s very healthy way for a nation or a culture to proceed.

Novica: I think with Macedonians especially there’s a famous proverb that the head bowed low will not be beheaded, it won’t be cut off by the sword. In other words just recognise your occupier, your coloniser, and try to get on with your daily life. Try not to provoke. There’s that current in the Macedonian community, not to stir the pot.

Racism With their criticisms of the failure to achieve reconciliation, I was curious about whether they perceived Australia as a racist country. Although they all agreed that there are racist people within it, they were reluctant to categorise Australia as a whole in that fashion. Novica discerned evidence of ‘structural racism’ within the legal system. He cited the example of Aboriginal deaths in custody and the high rate of Aboriginal imprisonment as an example of this. They also mentioned the invidious recognition of foreign qualifications in Australia. While a degree from an Anglo Saxon country was readily recognised, Violeta’s straight A grades from Macedonia had been interpreted as middle ranking marks by an official at the University of NSW.

Despite these problems, the group acknowledged their appreciation of Australian laws that try to enforce equal opportunity. There are no formal structures of this kind in Macedonia. Consequently it is very much the norm that minority groups like gipsies suffer systematic discrimination. Novica suggested that most Macedonian parents would not be happy if their daughter came home with a black boyfriend. They evidently felt that a certain degree of racism exists within the Macedonian community in Australia.

^[71] Focus Group Discussion with Younger Macedonians, Multiculturalism and National Parks Research Project Field Tapes 6 & 7. Following quotations from this source.